What constitutes skill in sports gaming?

by pastapadre
Posted April 15th, 2008 at 6:19 am

Over at 5WG there is what I find to be a fascinating back and forth discussion regarding “skill” in sports gaming. It’s definitely worth a full read through here and part two here. The trigger for the topic was a recent Game Informer issue which stated that MLB 2K8 requires more skill to play than MLB 08: The Show. Basically the thinking behind that is the unique control schemes force users to build up skill by utilizing them as opposed to The Show which is more traditional and straight forward.

I look back to the Madden vision cone as one clear example of “twitch” skill vs knowledge. While it was designed in an attempt to replicate the real decision making of a QB it was severely flawed. Yet there was a faction of gamers who swore by it and acted as though anyone who didn’t like the cone or didn’t want to use it were somehow less skilled than those who did. But is having a minutely quicker reaction time to take advantage of flaws with a feature really skill? Some may say it is while others not. A video game skill maybe but it isn’t cerebral in nature as some football fans would prefer the game is played.

One thing, and this has been addressed a lot lately by EA Sports President Peter Moore, is that the sports titles need to be more accessible. The control schemes are considered by many to be too complicated and extremely difficult to learn and get comfortable with. For people who have been playing Madden for many years it seems like second nature but for someone picking it up for the first time it is overwhelming. Even in the case of myself, and I have vast experience with Madden, I don’t even bother with about 80% of the pre-play defensive options. Just imagine someone relatively new to the game seeing all those options on screen and having only a few seconds to process it all.

What do you guys think when it comes to video game skill vs knowledge of sport skill? How should games balance the two? What are some examples of games that got it right whether that be through the controls, features, or simply the overall gameplay?

Tags:

Michael

Pasta i think you should do a write up about whic game u think will be better this year Madden or Ncaa 09 just alittle bit before the games come out like a preview. Then after both games are out do a write up comparing and selecting your favorite
Michael

What do u think pasta?
Timothy Daley

[quote comment="17666"]Give me a break! All this talk about simplifying the control scheme. Are you people so scared of a learning curve!!?? Dame the game if you actually have to learn a new skill before you can button mash your way to a victory. I want more control over my pre-snap offence! Like in Madden 06 on the Xbox! I hate this mentality that every thing should be easy. Just another indicator that we live in a society of lemmings.

Skill in a game is gauged by ones ability to play a game as it would be played in real life. For example, in Madden, people tend to use goalline all over the field. At their own 20 or at your 20 and anywhere in between. This is not skill. It hints at a fundamental misunderstanding of the game of football. To add on to this annoyance, it often times is successful. This is due to EA’s desire to accommodate the brain dead casual gaymer.

Another example would be the idiot who runs 20 yards back with the QB and throws a perfect pass. This too hints at a fundamental misunderstanding of the game of football. This is arcade style football; not sim. How many times do you see an NFL team go for it on 4th and 15? Rarely. I seen the Patriots do it one or two times last season. Now how many idiots do you see in Madden go for it on 4th and 15?? 90 percent, and their successful 98 percent of the time. This is not sim football. The odds should be stacked against any player who decides to go for it on 4th down when its not necessary. Why is it not? Ea’s desire to accommodate the casual gaymer. It’s a lame attempt to make the game more exciting when in actuality its frustrating to people who want to play a SIM FOOTBALL GAME!

If you want to gauge skill is sports games? Look at the SIM player and look at the GIMMICK player and contrast their styles of play. Gimmick player, more often than not, ruin the sports gaming experience. And I haven’t forgotten about the fools who will open up the game with an onside kick! This gross display of game play should be banned online as well as the other gimmick strategies that I mentioned before. Gimmick players should learn the game of football before the try to play a “SIM” football game.[/quote]

How ever noble your intentions you entirely miss the motives of online gamers and the motive is to win at all costs. People don’t aim to play any game straight. That’s why every year everyone wants to know the money plays or exploits in Madden. First off nothing about sports video games is skill. Its all motor reflexes and timing largely. YOU are not playing a sport, YOU are playing a video game which is only exercising your fingers.

People just want to win and they don’t care how they do it. If you actually expect an online game to be played straight up and like its real sport counterpart than you are sadly naive. Madden is the prime offender of this and will continue to be that way. With every new feature that Madden offers, there is a new way to exploit it.
Timothy Daley

[quote comment="17666"]Give me a break! All this talk about simplifying the control scheme. Are you people so scared of a learning curve!!?? Dame the game if you actually have to learn a new skill before you can button mash your way to a victory. I want more control over my pre-snap offence! Like in Madden 06 on the Xbox! I hate this mentality that every thing should be easy. Just another indicator that we live in a society of lemmings.

Skill in a game is gauged by ones ability to play a game as it would be played in real life. For example, in Madden, people tend to use goalline all over the field. At their own 20 or at your 20 and anywhere in between. This is not skill. It hints at a fundamental misunderstanding of the game of football. To add on to this annoyance, it often times is successful. This is due to EA’s desire to accommodate the brain dead casual gaymer.

Another example would be the idiot who runs 20 yards back with the QB and throws a perfect pass. This too hints at a fundamental misunderstanding of the game of football. This is arcade style football; not sim. How many times do you see an NFL team go for it on 4th and 15? Rarely. I seen the Patriots do it one or two times last season. Now how many idiots do you see in Madden go for it on 4th and 15?? 90 percent, and their successful 98 percent of the time. This is not sim football. The odds should be stacked against any player who decides to go for it on 4th down when its not necessary. Why is it not? Ea’s desire to accommodate the casual gaymer. It’s a lame attempt to make the game more exciting when in actuality its frustrating to people who want to play a SIM FOOTBALL GAME!

If you want to gauge skill is sports games? Look at the SIM player and look at the GIMMICK player and contrast their styles of play. Gimmick player, more often than not, ruin the sports gaming experience. And I haven’t forgotten about the fools who will open up the game with an onside kick! This gross display of game play should be banned online as well as the other gimmick strategies that I mentioned before. Gimmick players should learn the game of football before the try to play a “SIM” football game.[/quote]

How ever noble your intentions you entirely miss the motives of online gamers and the motive is to win at all costs. People don’t aim to play any game straight. That’s why every year everyone wants to know the money plays or exploits in Madden. First off nothing about sports video games is skill. Its all motor reflexes and timing largely. YOU are not playing a sport, YOU are playing a video game which is only exercising your fingers.

People just want to win and they don’t care how they do it. If you actually expect an online game to be played straight up and like its real sport counterpart than you are sadly naive. Madden is the prime offender of this and will continue to be that way. With every new feature that Madden offers, there is a new way to exploit it.
Darkheath

[quote comment="17673"]Pasta i think you should do a write up about whic game u think will be better this year Madden or Ncaa 09 just alittle bit before the games come out like a preview. Then after both games are out do a write up comparing and selecting your favorite[/quote]

Michael… thaat… is exactly what this blog is all about. What do you think he’s going to put on here… Broadway reviews?
Darkheath

[quote comment="17673"]Pasta i think you should do a write up about whic game u think will be better this year Madden or Ncaa 09 just alittle bit before the games come out like a preview. Then after both games are out do a write up comparing and selecting your favorite[/quote]

Michael… thaat… is exactly what this blog is all about. What do you think he’s going to put on here… Broadway reviews?
http://www.pastapadre.com/ pastapadre

[quote comment="17673"]Pasta i think you should do a write up about whic game u think will be better this year Madden or Ncaa 09 just alittle bit before the games come out like a preview. Then after both games are out do a write up comparing and selecting your favorite[/quote]

Yeah, I’ll be waiting until I’ve got more details on both games though before I’d be able to do something like that. Thanks for the suggestion.
http://www.pastapadre.com pastapadre

[quote comment="17673"]Pasta i think you should do a write up about whic game u think will be better this year Madden or Ncaa 09 just alittle bit before the games come out like a preview. Then after both games are out do a write up comparing and selecting your favorite[/quote]

Yeah, I’ll be waiting until I’ve got more details on both games though before I’d be able to do something like that. Thanks for the suggestion.
Darkheath

Padre… you’re so nice.

BTW… I’d love to know the story behind the “PastaPadre” name. I know those are two words I’ve never seen next to each other.
Darkheath

Padre… you’re so nice.

BTW… I’d love to know the story behind the “PastaPadre” name. I know those are two words I’ve never seen next to each other.
http://www.thefanboys.com/ Boom

I agree with much of what Mighty Boom has stated, but I certainly would state it with a little more tact.

Biggest point is pre-snap reads and adjustments. I beg to the holy God of videogame football that they do not dumb that down.

If I want Champ to jump the flat route, I should be able to instruct him to do that (just one example).

I don’t mind making the game more accessible at all, but by all means do not “dumb it down”.

I was a fan of the Vision Cone. I hate the fact that instead of trying to tweak it / improve it, they just did away with it. I looked at it more than just making some quarterbacks standing out above others. It was also used on D as I played Safety, CB or even LB.

It was fun to look manual defenders off and it sucked when you got burnt by being looked off and got caught cheating a little bit. I used to use the cone to set my opponent up later on in the game.

While it could be tweaked, it surely wasn’t completely broken IMO. Put me in the camp that wouldn’t play online without it.

I don’t claim to be good. Hell I’m old enough that I get smoked more than I lay the wood to somebody. It’s still about combining the knowledge with the skills. Don’t take the skill out of the game. Too bad it seems with each new version, the 1′s and 0′s of the code have more an impact on the final score than the two players holding the controllers.
http://www.thefanboys.com Boom

I agree with much of what Mighty Boom has stated, but I certainly would state it with a little more tact.

Biggest point is pre-snap reads and adjustments. I beg to the holy God of videogame football that they do not dumb that down.

If I want Champ to jump the flat route, I should be able to instruct him to do that (just one example).

I don’t mind making the game more accessible at all, but by all means do not “dumb it down”.

I was a fan of the Vision Cone. I hate the fact that instead of trying to tweak it / improve it, they just did away with it. I looked at it more than just making some quarterbacks standing out above others. It was also used on D as I played Safety, CB or even LB.

It was fun to look manual defenders off and it sucked when you got burnt by being looked off and got caught cheating a little bit. I used to use the cone to set my opponent up later on in the game.

While it could be tweaked, it surely wasn’t completely broken IMO. Put me in the camp that wouldn’t play online without it.

I don’t claim to be good. Hell I’m old enough that I get smoked more than I lay the wood to somebody. It’s still about combining the knowledge with the skills. Don’t take the skill out of the game. Too bad it seems with each new version, the 1′s and 0′s of the code have more an impact on the final score than the two players holding the controllers.
Afrodamus

With the vision cone you actually had to read a defense and have the QB plant and throw.

W/O The vision cone you can sprint straight backwards 25 yards and scramble around like a fool and throw a strike.

Enough said
Afrodamus

With the vision cone you actually had to read a defense and have the QB plant and throw.

W/O The vision cone you can sprint straight backwards 25 yards and scramble around like a fool and throw a strike.

Enough said
GMONEY

First off this is a great topic. Personally I thought the vision cone was a great idea but it was poorly executed in the game. Madden is more of a game skill then actual football knowledge. The scemes are generic on both sides of the ball. There is very little that is complex about it, that is why the junk defences and crazy playcalling work. The junk defenses have cut down on the money plays on offence. But, in turn you fixed one problem and created another. Hopefully NFL Head Coach 09 is the X’s and O’s strategy game that alot of people seem to be clamering for. NHL 08 is a great game but the auto comback logic for the computer is off the charts at the end of the game.
GMONEY

First off this is a great topic. Personally I thought the vision cone was a great idea but it was poorly executed in the game. Madden is more of a game skill then actual football knowledge. The scemes are generic on both sides of the ball. There is very little that is complex about it, that is why the junk defences and crazy playcalling work. The junk defenses have cut down on the money plays on offence. But, in turn you fixed one problem and created another. Hopefully NFL Head Coach 09 is the X’s and O’s strategy game that alot of people seem to be clamering for. NHL 08 is a great game but the auto comback logic for the computer is off the charts at the end of the game.
Alan

What about High Heat Baseball 2004? The control was easy to master, and at the same time it was a pretty deep game. For a videogame that does not require too much preciseness in motor skills (which the real game of baseball requires), it sure did a good job depicting the feel of the game.
Alan

What about High Heat Baseball 2004? The control was easy to master, and at the same time it was a pretty deep game. For a videogame that does not require too much preciseness in motor skills (which the real game of baseball requires), it sure did a good job depicting the feel of the game.
GMONEY

[quote comment="17753"]What about High Heat Baseball 2004? The control was easy to master, and at the same time it was a pretty deep game. For a videogame that does not require too much preciseness in motor skills (which the real game of baseball requires), it sure did a good job depicting the feel of the game.[/quote]

Gotta agree with you. High Heat was spot on in terms of gameplay. It got no love because the graphics where subpar.
GMONEY

[quote comment="17753"]What about High Heat Baseball 2004? The control was easy to master, and at the same time it was a pretty deep game. For a videogame that does not require too much preciseness in motor skills (which the real game of baseball requires), it sure did a good job depicting the feel of the game.[/quote]

Gotta agree with you. High Heat was spot on in terms of gameplay. It got no love because the graphics where subpar.
Sidewinder

High Heat, MVP 05 and all the PC mods for those games really made them great.

Now we have MLB 08 PS3, and out of the box it is the best playing baseball game yet. The great thing about this game is that it scales well to your personal experience too. If you are a little leaguer, you can pick it up and have fun while reinforcing what you have been coached in the field.

If you are a pro, you can pick it up and use all the additional knowledge to your advantage, because the controls are so intuitive and ergonomic and the AI is outstanding.

Games like this are rare and need to be appreciated. A BPI this good will even make you a better hitter when playing on the field too.

A game this realistic will separate the men from the boys when playing, because one’s baseball knowledge and instincts will trump someone with lesser skills.

That is the sign of a great sports game. When real skill and knowledge of a sport translate into on-screen performance and outcomes.
Sidewinder

High Heat, MVP 05 and all the PC mods for those games really made them great.

Now we have MLB 08 PS3, and out of the box it is the best playing baseball game yet. The great thing about this game is that it scales well to your personal experience too. If you are a little leaguer, you can pick it up and have fun while reinforcing what you have been coached in the field.

If you are a pro, you can pick it up and use all the additional knowledge to your advantage, because the controls are so intuitive and ergonomic and the AI is outstanding.

Games like this are rare and need to be appreciated. A BPI this good will even make you a better hitter when playing on the field too.

A game this realistic will separate the men from the boys when playing, because one’s baseball knowledge and instincts will trump someone with lesser skills.

That is the sign of a great sports game. When real skill and knowledge of a sport translate into on-screen performance and outcomes.