What constitutes skill in sports gaming?

I think MLB 2k8 would’ve gotten it right if it weren’t for the dreaded meatball punishment dished upon pitchers who mess up somewhere in the total control pitching process. I think that game balances stick-skills and baseball game knowledge very well. In real life, proper mechanics for pitching and hitting are important, and should at least be reflected on video games in a not so watered down fashion. The pitching meters of MVP and The Show series got it right, and MLB 2k8’s total control pitching took it a step further. All I hope for is a new patch to come out that help randomize the punishment for messing up the pitching process.

[quote comment="17633"]I think MLB 2k8 would’ve gotten it right if it weren’t for the dreaded meatball punishment dished upon pitchers who mess up somewhere in the total control pitching process. I think that game balances stick-skills and baseball game knowledge very well. In real life, proper mechanics for pitching and hitting are important, and should at least be reflected on video games in a not so watered down fashion. The pitching meters of MVP and The Show series got it right, and MLB 2k8’s total control pitching took it a step further. All I hope for is a new patch to come out that help randomize the punishment for messing up the pitching process.[/quote]

Could not DISAGREE with you more. I played baseball from 7 years old through college, and I can say without a doubt that MLB 2K8 is a terrible representation of the real thing. AI pitchers do not pitch you smart, the hitting engine is completely random and not based on true life hitting physics/fundamentals (staying back on a curve ball taking it the opposite way, etc), and defensively the little nuances of baseball (infield shift on Papi,Thome, etc) are just not there. The analog pitching is a gimmick, and nothing about it represents real baseball-it’s like the vision cone in Madden, and I echoe Pasta’s feelings on the cone when I think of analog pitching in 2k8.

Back on topic-great topic by the way- I think sports games have over complicated games. Madden has gotten to the point where I feel the game plays me, rather than the other way around. 08’s frequent super interceptions, and fumbles only reassured my feelings on the subject. I should not be punished on a good read because the computer AI is programmed to react aggressively under a certain set of parameters.

Most sports games have gotten this way- from College Hoops and NBA 2K8’s sticky defense/automatic blocks, to NCAA Footballs rubberband ai for the cpu to get back into a game- sports games are more computer controlled today than gamer controlled.

I remember the golden era of sports gaming growing up in the 80’s and hitting my sports gaming peak in the early 90’s. Games like NHL 94 and RBI baseball were dependent on a players actual skill in the video game. There were no cheap computer ai plays to mask shoddy programming, rather your success in the game was dependent on your personal skills as a gamer.

The epitemy of a well balanced game for me was NCAA Football 2003 with Joey Harrington on the cover. I’ll never forget the endless nights I would spend with firneds attempting to beat Miami on heisman difficulty with Central Michigan. The great thing about it was that at no point in our epic struggle to defeat the ‘Canes did we ever encounter a moment where we thought “boy the computer is cheap”. The computer was just good, and took advantage of our mistakes.

My problem with todays games is that the developers have continuously made the AI basically cheat in order to make games close instead of taking the time to develop a new AI system. How many times have you been picked in Madden or NCAA by a defenseman who magically, magnetically attracts the balls into his hands from a yard away? How many times has the computer in NHL 08’s superstar difficulty somehow gone on a magical 9 goal flurry when down 2 in the last minute of a game? How many times has a lower tier team shot 80% int he first half of a game of College Hoops 2k8 on MOP difficulty?

Sports games need to get back to the days where user “skill” is more important than game glitches. I ihope Peter Moore does get sports gaming back to the glory days by simplifying control schemes and gameplay. And for all of you out there screaming “it won’t be sim”, or “Noobs will dominate”, or “you’ll ruin the game”…just shut up. If you were a true sports gamer (someone interested in the qulaity of the game, and not your own personal scores/glory) you would realize that the best sports games we’ve ever had, as well as the most hardcore, were the ones with the simplest gameplay/control schemes (please see NHL 94, RBI Series, Double Dribble, NBA Live 97, etc.).

(From a football gamer’s standpoint)

I guess it depends on what kind of gamer you are. Me personally, I’d prefer simpler controls as long as the sports games get more strategic and not allow people to abuse exploits.

For example, I can’t stand to see people dropback 15 yards with a QB, run, and still let off a perfect pass.

However, I do agree with you Pasta when it comes to the complexity of the pre-snap calls in Madden/NCAA. I too, tend to stay away from them (besides hot routes and O-line adjustments). It’s gotten to the point where even though I have a thorough understanding of football strategy, the controls and calls have gotten complicated.

Sports game developers need to find a happy medium. I’m not a hockey fan and have not played NHL 08 but I hear great things about how the controls have been simplified and it’s still a sim. If this can be done with Madden, then EA Sports is on the right path. I mean, stick skills should play their part but their should still be a heavy emphasis on STRATEGY. That way, even though a casual gamer can pick up the game and play, I’ll still have the advantage b/c I know the sport. As it stands now, strategy hardly plays a part in Madden 2008 which is a major flaw.

I just realized I was off topic on my post. I will make this statement quick and just say that I like knowledge of sports skill in games rather than being good at hitting a combo of buttons or timing something just right.

I can’t think of any specific examples, but it just feels so good to read a defense and make the right pass in football or skate to position for an open shot and make the goal in hockey games. A game can’t be perfectly balanced, but if I had to choose I would definitely say that knowledge is more rewarding than gaming skill to me.

I think its probably why I like the idea behind Head Coach but also the simplicity behind controlling a single player whether that be Campus Legend/Superstar or Online Team Play. You only worry about your assignments and responsibilities and you have your controls which you get comfortable with.

Good discussion going on, pretty interesting to read thoughts on the topic.

Great topic – one that’s of interest to me as I fall in the “Geezer Gamer” category and find myself sometimes frustrated that my understanding of “real life” sports doesn’t always translate to button mashing success …

Ultimately, “skill” has to be defined by the gamer’s ability to understand the controls, and have the dexterity to hit the right buttons at the right time – that will almost always persevere of sports knowledge

I think MLB2K8 is a great example of that – you need to know the way baseball as a sport operates and all the nuances therein, but then the game requires you to be able to use the controller and make it happen

My problem with Madden has always been that the dexterious can call silly plays or use the players in a way that doesn’t mirror the real sport – and still be very successful. The 20 yard dropback/running backwards/50 yard pinpoint bomb is a good example. Yet, within the parameters of the game, you’d have to say they have “skill” because they’ve learned the controls, the exploits and use them well

Eventually my aging button mashing fingers will make the move to straight sim type games, but for now – as a previous poster said – there is that moment in every game where you do read the defense properly (applying real world knowledge) and then hit the right buttons (applying game skill) and at that sweet spot is the fun of sports gaming

I always hated the great read/good throw–then magnetic INT’s by LB’s…and also people who take a QB with no mobility and drop back 20 yds and make perfect passes on the run. They should reward the QB who stays patient in the pocket and they don’t, especially with the stupid nano’s—which is why most people don’t like the cone. You can’t survey the field w/cones as easily as you’d like when someones nanoblitzing every down. I like the idea of Manning and Brady having bigger cones but it just doesn’t “flow” for me…

…the pitching in 2k8 is amazing and is more fun than tapping a button IMO. Makes pitching less boring!

Until someone goes againest the grain and releases a game where all the teams, and the players, are of equal ability – than the AI and attributes will continue to play a big part of a gamer’s success

On of the reasons I loved APF, was at least when you went online you knew both players had 11 legends, and it was how the gamer put togther that team, and after looking at his opponent, strategically attacked him, that would dictate success

The (seemingly) one billion players in Madden who routinely play the Pats/Colts/Chargers etc rarely rely on anything other than riding a superstar/superhero player to success

What was so disappointing about APF’s lack of mainstream success was that it pointed to the marketing people, that what people REALLY want is the NFL uniforms, and that football gameplay is really secondary

While I think the folks at Madden talk a good game, I’m sure the EA number crunchers are aware that 80% of their audience is the casual football fan who doesn’t REALLY want all the sim trappings and strategy of a football game

Crimson.. I’m with you as far as APF 2k8 goes. I rarely played sports games online before that came out (a couple of online seasons in 2k5 was all), but logged about 150 games in the lobbies of APF. I would say that game most closely represents what everyone is talking about here. Yes… you needed some “stick skillz”, but for the most part a good understanding of the game of football would serve you well.

One of the greatest things in that game, that a lot of casual gamers complaigned about, was how the momentum of the players played such an important part. It was very realistic in that you wouldn’t see a DB fly in out of nowhere to take the ball from you. If he bit on the WR’s juke, he wouldn’t be able to catch up to the route. Just like in real life. The blocking was also the best I’ve seen in a video game. You’d see realistic holes open up in front of you and you felt you could slow down and follow the blockers instead of running as fast as you can.

OK.. I know I’m getting a little of topic here, but the point is there was a game that struck a nice balance of knowledge, stick skills and simplicity. But because Madden fans can’t look past the NFL shield (and their hooligan, hip-hop players) there will be no more.

[quote comment="17645"]I think its probably why I like the idea behind Head Coach but also the simplicity behind controlling a single player whether that be Campus Legend/Superstar or Online Team Play. You only worry about your assignments and responsibilities and you have your controls which you get comfortable with.

Good discussion going on, pretty interesting to read thoughts on the topic.[/quote]

I think that is where sports gaming is heading, we have had the team concept around for a while and you cant really expand on it. However, with things like OTP and CL (specifically OTP) there is so much more there, plus it is a lot more interactive then sitting in your house controlling your own franchise. That being said I am really looking forward to online Dynasties in NCAA 09.

Thanks for noticing, Pasta – this is a fascinating topic, and one that I think is critical to sports gaming’s continued growth.

Much of the discussion is going to be centered around age, when it comes down to it. Sports games have now been around for a generation, and a true generation gap now exists, something that we discuss in the second part of the conversation today.

How – and if – that gap is traversed has more impact than virtually any other factor in sports game design going forward.

Pasta i think you should do a write up about whic game u think will be better this year Madden or Ncaa 09 just alittle bit before the games come out like a preview. Then after both games are out do a write up comparing and selecting your favorite

[quote comment="17666"]Give me a break! All this talk about simplifying the control scheme. Are you people so scared of a learning curve!!?? Dame the game if you actually have to learn a new skill before you can button mash your way to a victory. I want more control over my pre-snap offence! Like in Madden 06 on the Xbox! I hate this mentality that every thing should be easy. Just another indicator that we live in a society of lemmings.

Skill in a game is gauged by ones ability to play a game as it would be played in real life. For example, in Madden, people tend to use goalline all over the field. At their own 20 or at your 20 and anywhere in between. This is not skill. It hints at a fundamental misunderstanding of the game of football. To add on to this annoyance, it often times is successful. This is due to EA’s desire to accommodate the brain dead casual gaymer.

Another example would be the idiot who runs 20 yards back with the QB and throws a perfect pass. This too hints at a fundamental misunderstanding of the game of football. This is arcade style football; not sim. How many times do you see an NFL team go for it on 4th and 15? Rarely. I seen the Patriots do it one or two times last season. Now how many idiots do you see in Madden go for it on 4th and 15?? 90 percent, and their successful 98 percent of the time. This is not sim football. The odds should be stacked against any player who decides to go for it on 4th down when its not necessary. Why is it not? Ea’s desire to accommodate the casual gaymer. It’s a lame attempt to make the game more exciting when in actuality its frustrating to people who want to play a SIM FOOTBALL GAME!

If you want to gauge skill is sports games? Look at the SIM player and look at the GIMMICK player and contrast their styles of play. Gimmick player, more often than not, ruin the sports gaming experience. And I haven’t forgotten about the fools who will open up the game with an onside kick! This gross display of game play should be banned online as well as the other gimmick strategies that I mentioned before. Gimmick players should learn the game of football before the try to play a “SIM” football game.[/quote]

How ever noble your intentions you entirely miss the motives of online gamers and the motive is to win at all costs. People don’t aim to play any game straight. That’s why every year everyone wants to know the money plays or exploits in Madden. First off nothing about sports video games is skill. Its all motor reflexes and timing largely. YOU are not playing a sport, YOU are playing a video game which is only exercising your fingers.

People just want to win and they don’t care how they do it. If you actually expect an online game to be played straight up and like its real sport counterpart than you are sadly naive. Madden is the prime offender of this and will continue to be that way. With every new feature that Madden offers, there is a new way to exploit it.

I agree with much of what Mighty Boom has stated, but I certainly would state it with a little more tact.

Biggest point is pre-snap reads and adjustments. I beg to the holy God of videogame football that they do not dumb that down.

If I want Champ to jump the flat route, I should be able to instruct him to do that (just one example).

I don’t mind making the game more accessible at all, but by all means do not “dumb it down”.

I was a fan of the Vision Cone. I hate the fact that instead of trying to tweak it / improve it, they just did away with it. I looked at it more than just making some quarterbacks standing out above others. It was also used on D as I played Safety, CB or even LB.

It was fun to look manual defenders off and it sucked when you got burnt by being looked off and got caught cheating a little bit. I used to use the cone to set my opponent up later on in the game.

While it could be tweaked, it surely wasn’t completely broken IMO. Put me in the camp that wouldn’t play online without it.

I don’t claim to be good. Hell I’m old enough that I get smoked more than I lay the wood to somebody. It’s still about combining the knowledge with the skills. Don’t take the skill out of the game. Too bad it seems with each new version, the 1’s and 0’s of the code have more an impact on the final score than the two players holding the controllers.

First off this is a great topic. Personally I thought the vision cone was a great idea but it was poorly executed in the game. Madden is more of a game skill then actual football knowledge. The scemes are generic on both sides of the ball. There is very little that is complex about it, that is why the junk defences and crazy playcalling work. The junk defenses have cut down on the money plays on offence. But, in turn you fixed one problem and created another. Hopefully NFL Head Coach 09 is the X’s and O’s strategy game that alot of people seem to be clamering for. NHL 08 is a great game but the auto comback logic for the computer is off the charts at the end of the game.

[quote comment="17753"]What about High Heat Baseball 2004? The control was easy to master, and at the same time it was a pretty deep game. For a videogame that does not require too much preciseness in motor skills (which the real game of baseball requires), it sure did a good job depicting the feel of the game.[/quote]

Gotta agree with you. High Heat was spot on in terms of gameplay. It got no love because the graphics where subpar.